Congratulations To Viking Elkhorn Race Racers

[vikingrat]

Dear Racers , ( Brian Mattingly , Delaney Allbright , Jim Gunn , Todd Schindler , Dan Coaplen )

Thanks for representing the Vikings at the Elkhorn race and congratulations for your top ten finishes .

Sincerely ,
Vikingrat

P.S. I want a Viking to win this race next year in 2011 . Also , congratulations to all Viking competitors .

[biggb]

We'll need faster boats.

I think we should use some IronMan money (or sell that silly hydrodonky thing) to commission 5 top secret, super fast fiber boats to be built by john albright.

IMHO...the fastest boat out there was the Isere (fiberglass sea kayak) paddled by Fred Tuttle.

Clays speeder was next fastest. You really need a fast boat on a race like that.

All in all i do think the vikings who showed looked pretty strong out there. Turbo's ski goggles were a nice touch.

And just as i learned in last years green race, theres always next year.

[turbodog]

Unless I missed a vote, the hydrobronc is still property of Mark A? Your top secret status watered down a bit when you hit reply on your last post there Big B ?
Anyway, faster boats would rock the house fer shore. Some 17 foot ctx plastic or fiberglass/kevlar would be nice as well. We would probably need backup boats in case of high water, or try some test runs above 2000cfs in long boats.
I'm with ya let's bury the BW's next year !

My personal time was enhanced greatly by the paddle (228 cm malone ) .

[vikingrat]

We'll need faster boats.

I think we should use some IronMan money (or sell that silly hydrodonky thing) to commission 5 top secret, super fast fiber boats to be built by john albright.

IMHO...the fastest boat out there was the Isere (fiberglass sea kayak) paddled by Fred Tuttle.

Clays speeder was next fastest. You really need a fast boat on a race like that.

All in all i do think the vikings who showed looked pretty strong out there. Turbo's ski goggles were a nice touch.

And just as i learned in last years green race, theres always next year.

Yes Biggb , The club needs to buy a real wildwater down river racer carbon fiber / glass boat and put our fastest elite
kayaker in it next year ...............Go Go Vikings !!

[sandman]

How hard would it be to build our own ? How many man hours ? How much in materials ? Or better yet how about borrowing some boats from the U of L rowing club for next year?

[rtmillea]

Here's what we need:

http://www.usawildwater.com/images/090902_SprintK1.jpg

For Sale: sprint k1: kayak pro k1 (Posted - September 2, 2009)
Only on the water a few times. White. Will take best offer. Located in western NC. Contact Jamie Burns at jamietburns@gmail.com.
http://www.usawildwater.com/equipment.htm

[turbodog]

Me like ! Unga Bunga want boat

[biggb]

i don't think that sprint boat would be very good...not sure it could handle the small waves on the elkhorn. is it not meant for flatwater?

sandman, i don't know how much it would cost but I'm going to try and find out. i don't think john albright could help himself from helping on that project.

[gmiller]

That boat would be great for the race, but just once. The best thing about the composite boats that make them fast is having a pristine gelcoat on them. If they get scratched up like the bottom of every other white water boat, you've pretty much just wasted your money. I don't take my kevlar boat out anyplace where there's even the slightest chance of hitting a rock.

[biggb]

a scratched fiber / composite boat is still way faster than a regular plastic kayak any day of the week.

Obviously, shape and weight being the key component.

I paddled a Dagger Greenboat...built for ClassV creek racing for the most part. Great for that...very slow for the flatwater on the Elkhorn.

[gmiller]

Maybe I'm underestimating how serious you're taking this race. Yea, a scratched gelcoated boat probably is faster than a scratched plastic one, I just couldn't imagine someone "ruining" a good boat like that. But I'll disagree that the weight of the boat is a key component, friction is the most important factor. True a lighter boat will displace less water and will have less friction, but it's the weight of the whole system, paddler included that counts, and you're not going to save anything noticeable for a 30 minute race. At best you'd save a couple millimeters along the sides of the boat, vs what's already under water which would include the entire bottom of the boat and most of the sides already. But if you're going to go all out, I don't see why not. You're going to want to make sure you choose a layup that can survive hitting some rocks, so a flatwater racing kayak isn't what you want.

And as long as you're going all out, you're going to want some wing paddles, and you'll want to learn how to use them. I do have one you can copy, and two videos on how to use them, and am willing to teach. But you'll have to practice quite a bit to get the full benefit.

But it just seems to me that all the time and energy spent on designing and building boats would be more beneficial if it were channeled into exercising more.

[biggb]

thanks for the racing tips greg...maybe we'll see you out there next year. bring your winged paddle and don't forget to wax your boat.

[Bryon]

This could be a fun project to brainstorm about over some beers -

The key to reducing friction is maintaining smooth laminar flow over the hull and reducing the low pressure pocked of turbulence behind the boat. The coeff of friction for laminar flow is much much lower than that for turbulent flow. At some point over the length of the hull, the flow will inevitably transition to turbulent flow....the key is to extend that critical length....which is why longer boats with less agressive attack angles on the hull are so much more efficient. I've been studying this stuff recently in an academic setting...it might be fun to rig up a simple smoke tunnel and test some designs on small scales and apply some of that theory to the real world....thinking pinwood derby scale wood blocks, plywood tunnels with fans.....surely some stoner out there can help design or lend a smoke manifold....perhaps rigging up a forced air feed to a couple of hukkahs or something.

and the more I think about it - I think small scratches on a hull would offer a negligible contribution to drag and perhaps even assist in reducing drag as in a golf ball or whale/porpoise skin. There is assumed to be a boundary layer where fluid meets the body surface at which the fluid velocity is assumed to be zero (No Slip Boundary Condition). As long as the scratches are smaller than that boundary layer they should not influence drag.There are some boat builders trying to model exterior membranes for their ships after whale skin (which is rough and slimy in a micro scale)....some are even considering designing a skin that slowly oozes a slime layer. I think there is a big navy project I read about in the New Scientist looking into the slime releasing hull for both fuel/drag savings and to eliminate having to drydock in order to clean and maintain hulls.....a self cleaning more efficient hull...loosley based on whale mucous. It might not be entirely crazy to coat the boat with something semisoluble and slimy that would sluff off during the race. Not oil or petroleum jelly or anything like that...but perhaps let it hang out in water and to condition and get slimy algae layer on it.

I have a brother in law that builds boats and studied boat engineering specifically...he would probably be a pretty good source for info. I know he has some good books on boatbuilding that I'm sure I could borrow.

B- I'm in the neighborhood and probably have most of the materials to build a tunnel out of scraps

[Gunner]

I'll bet those bears in your avatar know something about the coeff of friction.

[gmiller]

Perhaps better and more practical than a wind tunnel would be a water tunnel. Probably easier to build and would let you observe the effects at slower speeds. Just throw some glitter in there, or inject some food coloring through a tube at certain locations. At least that's how they did it on Mythbusters.

Since you're not really interested in the effects the top of the boat has on the fluid dynamics of the boat, you could just float it on top of the water and add weight to make it sit the right depth. You might even use a trigger pull gauge or something similar to actually get a measurement of how much resistance you're getting.

One thing to consider is that the Elkhorn isn't a lake, the water in it is moving and has its own turbulence. So I'm betting the boat making turbulence is going to be less of an issue.

At some point you're going to have to make a trade off between how long you want the boat vs. being able to make turns. Most of the turns seem gradual enough to not be a factor, but S-Turn would be an issue. When I was contemplating running the race, I was wondering if it would be faster to just paddle straight ahead at S-Turn and intentionally beach myself, then hop out of the boat and throw it down the other side. Of course if EJ is going to be right there, such a strategy might attract a lot of his attention.

[biggb]

water tunnels, wing paddles and waxed hulls...oh my.

[claytonbixby]

Best thread EVER.......congratulations.....y'all have now won somethin




BLAH HA HA HA

[Jess2]

thats a sweet username ^^

[turbodog]

What about the EAC stack and the eddies and turbulence of the blood running through the racers veins (felt good to me, and seemed to perform better than Baxter's 5 hour energy bottle).
Maybe nanoboats could be launched into the blood stream and we could research both phenomena at once.

Clay Warrens loaner boat was knocked off the racing shape of a few boats I have only seen speeding by me on the Ocoee here and there. Super thin bow and slightly wider behind the cockpit with some good slicey edges on the ends. Maybe a smoke filled chambered whitewater freak has already figured this one out?

[biggb]

get outa here clayton biggsb...learn to spell that shit.

[Bryon]

I am at my brother in law's this evening. He sounds interested in building prototypes. He builds small boats for fun; he's a stay at home dad now and has the time.

He was wondering if anyone kew the approximate speed of a racing kayak under NPFF race conditions. Knowing the approximate speed would help with beginning parameters.

He had an idea - a medium boat with air lubrication. Apparently one of the secrets to the speed of cigarette boats is that they draw air under the hull and it serves as a lubricant. You could use a small 5lb CO2 tank and air stones for this purpose during a short race. You could in theory shorten the length of the boat better maneuverablility and achieve similar performance to a long boat with gas lubrication.

He thought some some simple prototypes could be built from 1/8" plywood pretty inexpensively - and they'd be lightweight. The actual race could be built out of better materials. He agreed with pretty much everyone here that the R&D is mostly done already. Knowing the approximate speeds of a NPFF race or perhaps flatwater paddling speeds would help to pick an established design to start with.

(Pre-emptive response) Yes Jim, my avatar bears could teach a class on the merits of good lubrication.

[gmiller]

A decent flatwater paddler would keep a pace of 5-6Mph, maybe a little faster for a 30min race.

I'm absolutely certain the research has been done. I'm also absolutely certain you'll never see the results of it. Pretty much all of the research is done by the producers of the kayaks, and they have nothing to gain by publishing the results of their work. In fact they have a lot to gain by keeping it secret, and even from publishing incorrect information. Also, most races have restrictions on the length and width of the boats that can participate, and the research is on how to bend the rules the most.

[rtmillea]

How about a fleet of Perception wavehoppers?

ps. I wasn't nearly as serious about my last suggestion...

[biggb]

quick question...how many races have you guys participated in and what kind were they?

[gmiller]

I have competed in 0 races.

[aquaholic]

That was my first "official" race , although I did enter the ocoee whitewater rodeo many moons ago. My secret weapon there was a noah aeroquatic. I finished about the same there too.Might just order me a modified jet propulsion race boat from acme!

[Doug_Davis]

Im sooooo winning next year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCtWmC35 ... _embedded#

Jet powered kayak. Hella fast!

[gmiller]

I have it in writing on the forum from BigB that jet powered kayaks are allowed. Add a wing paddle and you'll be unstoppable.

[gmiller]

Mythbusters is where I get all of my engineering information. Apparently the kayak should be covered in dimples like a golf ball:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/22/myth ... pling-mpg/

[Mark Atkinson]

There's a fiberglass old style kayak in paddleswap. It's located in Cincy. Mark